When I heard that this video referencing Obama was placed on the front page of Desiring God last week, I was a little put off because I just don’t think that Pastors should be speaking about politics from the pulpit. However, when I watched this video, it shook me quite profoundly. Further I should say that I don’t think that Piper’s words here are unfair or politically biased so much as they are simply true. I hope this shakes you too.
John Piper says, “Some of us wept for joy at your inauguration!” And immediately after this he says, “And we pledge that we will pray for you.” As if those who “wept for joy” did not already know Obama’s position on abortion at the time of his inauguration. Why weep for joy if they think President Obama is approving mass murder?
I think they wept for joy because there was some tension in that moment of election.
Something very good happened the day Obama was elected. We elected our first black president. That is a good thing and reason to rejoice. At the same time, there is this stark reality of abortion and Obama’s position on it now, which he is starting to put into action which is devastatingly sad.
I feel that tension, less so now that I did on election day, but I can still say that election day was a momentous occasion in our country.
This is an interesting video. Actually it was put together quite well (graphics and animation) and its quite provocative; however its focusing on the wrong individual(s). With that being said I’m assuming you see that I disagree with the Pastor. I too am a Christian and I agree with the President on this subject. What biblical basis do I reference you ask? Well as you so eloquently stated in your blog {Divorce and Remarriage (Foundations) March 10, 2008 by Drew}. I’ll use your stated proposition to argue my position. In that blog you noted that God hates divorce and Jesus appropriately responded to his critiques by confirming that Moses allowed for these matters due to the hardening of man’s heart. The same principle is true for abortion. “Divorce and remarriage exist in our world because sin dwells deeply in our hearts. Thus to fight divorce we need a healthy understanding of our own sinfulness and the truth that Christ is the sole solution to our great sin problem.” your words not mine. Not to go onto another issue but this is why I also believe same sex marriage will pass within most states (if not the Supreme Court). Now, I don’t agree with either, but just as Moses (the leader or you could say President of his people) allowed for divorce among the children of Israel (society), so too does President Obama take a position which allows for abortion among the American people. I voted for our last President and he did the same thing (so did the President before him and the President before him). They didn’t take it off the table because the “people want it” just as they wanted a King and wanted to be governed like other nations and not God (1 Samuel 8). If the pastor were so distraught with the number of aborted fetus’ how about he take up his cross and approach the 500,000 + (or whatever the number is) women who are in need of help. This finely orchestrated tirade of a video he put together should have been an outcry to women across the world, that God is on your side and that God will provide for your need concerning that unborn child. In fact, he could have even said something to the effect of “if you call this number we can assist you and help lead you in an encouraging direction because life can be difficult… but you are more than a conquerors.” Instead he used his word to come against one and incite many to anger. To me his rant was for show and merely hypocrisy. That same video (voice) could have been his galvanizing of people toward a cause that seeks out women who are at a crossroads with abortion. Now you might say there are “programs” available for women to consider, but I beg to differ. The role of the church is to provide the “Good News.” That is not being represented on a massive front within the Church. There are women (and we cannot forget the men) who need financial help, homes, encouragement and more importantly love when they find themselves in these positions. Does it have to be about God? Yes. Do we have to force it down their throats? No. “Programs” don’t provide the love of God; people who know God and are genuinely concerned for their brothers/sisters are to provide that. What was Jesus doing as he walked this earth preaching, teaching and healing. Everyone he dealt with didn’t necessarily come to God and repent from their wicked ways, yet he healed them anyway. Within our society we’ve even denigrated that act of giving to welfare and welfare is a bad. I will say this because I believe it to be truth. One of the sins coming out of this debate is how racist this nation of “believers” truly is. People are quick to throw down the gauntlet on President Obama because he is black (within our society its quite easy to tell a black man he’s wrong), but can you imagine someone coming out against Moses for “his personal lawful decree” concerning divorce? The gauntlet wasn’t thrown down on Moses or the men who wrote the letters of divorce. Again this is my opinion as this is a blog. Thanks for reading my opinion.
Saying that “it’s a private family matter” is such a cop out and
hypocritical. What about Daniel Hawser’s family forced at
gun point by the Supreme Court judges decision that Daniel must have Chemotherapy, regardless what options the family would have decided to follow. America uses terrorism just as
much as any other country so don’t expect Obama to fix any
of your problems.
@ Mark:
I read twice through your reply. Two primary things stick out that lend to discredit your evaluation.
To sum up:
You make a deductive fallacy. Your linking (here) the biblical principles for divorce to abortion assumes that they are one-to-one or a fair comparison.
A lengthy example of a similar mistake:
A friend once tried to link abortion to homosexuality by arguing his point with my parts.
In short: (A) Babies have a God-given right to life. (B) Murder is the unlawful killing of one human being by another. Abortion is just a legal murder.
Variables: (C) Some babies will be gay. (D) Gays have a God-given right to life.
Fallacy: If God is pro-life he must also be pro-gay.
Conclusion: It is a monumental leap of interpretation and twisting of the words of Scripture to come up with biblical support for homosexual relationships. It is just not there. There may be some issues that can legitimately be confused for a while but that is not one of them. Scripture speaks to homosexuality very clearly and without apology.
IOW God is pro-life. He is not pro-gay.
Back to your comment:
Add to that mistake the fact that you do not get the fuller conclusion of the post that you are linking to Piper here. The quote you mention does not mean that Drew is saying that divorce is divinely permissible (in the sense that God is OK with it) and despised at the same time. Neither is he saying that divorce is OK because of sin. He is just saying that sin is part of the problem.
If you’re going to try to stretch that argument you must deal with the post in its entirety. But I don’t think you can because divorce and abortion are two different things. Even if some biblical principles apply to both, they are not one-to-one, except maybe in the broadest sense that God hates both while both still happen. I noticed that you try to avoid making a deductive fallacy but you did.
You also make a personal attack fallacy. And I bet you would be embarrassed by what you said if you knew Dr. Piper or about what BBC does for women facing crisis pregnancies.
Besides your comment is naive; you assume that the way of the majority, or the way of the Supreme Court, or the way of a mob is biblical because of Moses or Samuel. Or if not biblical then permitted, and therefore, tolerated. Tolerated? So God’s people should not stand against evil? Should they not fight to overturn bad laws? Should they not win people over both in pregnancy support and in the public square?
Bear in mind that just because God is sovereign and permits evil or often tarries as sin runs—it does not mean that justice is irrelevant or that evil is not to be lamented or practically and politically fought over. Or that President Obama is a bystander to the issue. He is involved. He is not just an onlooker. He is pro-abortion. C’mon! On the 36th anniversary of Roe v Wade he signed a pro-abortion executive order. He is not just a Moses.
(A) Moses permitted divorce. (B) God permitted a king. (C) Supreme Court legalized abortion.
That does not mean that they are one-to-one.
That does not mean that pro-lifers should abandon the political side of the fight.
It leaves a sick taste in my mouth to think that we could sit around twittling our thumbs in a country where it is legal to kill a baby in the womb. Your comment was long. So I apologize in advance for not addressing every part of it.
@kschaub:
You took the time to read my reply, twice. It obviously struck a nerve. Hmm… what does that mean for you?
Okay on to what you had to say to me… you basically called me a liar and told me that I was naive (according to you I twist scripture). With that being said, you made that claim without any reference to ANY scripture. Again, I say without any reference to any scripture… just your opinion. Let me get one thing straight with you… I’m a born again believer who knows that he is saved by the grace of God and not man (John 3:16). I never said God agreed with man in fact His ways are not like man’s (John 18:36, Isaiah 55:8-9, 1 Corinthians 1:19-20 & 25-27, 1 Corinthians 2:14). You said, “It leaves a sick taste in my mouth to think that we could sit around twittling our thumbs in a country where it is legal to kill a baby in the womb.” You even said “Bear in mind that just because God is sovereign and permits evil or often tarries as sin runs…” God does not tarry as sin runs sir. It would seem you think having faith in God to touch the hearts of men is twitting one’s thumbs? I call into question your faith in God. You want to force people to live “righteously” when they don’t even know God (1 John 2:15-17). The millions of women who are at a crossroads with abortion need to know they are more than conquerors (Romans 8:37) and that they don’t have to chose death but rather life (Deuteronomy 30:19). They also need to know mercy and grace. You want to cast the first stone and use the sword which merely kills the flesh. You want to blame ALL of the abortion sins of man on one, President Obama. I say to you God will deal with the legislatures, the Supreme Court, the President, the doctor who performs the abortion and the many women who insist on the procedure. He will even handle the soul of the aborted. So where that leaves “believers” is to work at helping to convince women (and men) through the same love that has been shown us by God himself that there is a better way. If you can’t show me this through God’s word then we have nothing in common.
@ Mark:
Happy Sunday, sir. I apologize if this is too brief. But let me speak to a few parts of your second comment and go on. I’ll go line-by-line to illustrate why your reply is off-target.
Just because your initial comment is either naive or misinformed or wrong does not mean that I think you are a liar. I re-read your reply to make sure that I could connect the dots, not because I was beside myself. Neither do I jump from rejecting your reply to rejecting you as a brother. It appears you took my reply to your comment in a similar way as I took yours to Piper: as a personal attack. That is not the case, at least for my reply. Yours on Piper was.
You accuse me of arguing apart from Scripture. I can go back and edit my first reply if you need references and cross-references. Just let me know.
My initial reply was to point out fallacies in your argument. The first is a deductive fallacy. You misuse a post on divorce to fit it for your argument. Your second fallacy was a personal attack fallacy on Piper that is in reality a red-herring to your reply. Two fallacies in one 700-word reply lends to discredit your evaluation; and besides, I think you get off on the wrong foot.
You took issue with a few other parts of my reply. One was on God and what he does when sin runs. You said that God does not tarry. Is that true? If so then why is sin so rife today? If so then why the cry of the martyrs? “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” (Rev. 6:10).
God indeed judges and avenges. Herod was judged because he did not give God glory. “And he was eaten by worms and he died” (Acts 12:23). Yet how many, unlike Herod, do not give God glory and live? Could it be that God is waiting? That he is “patient with you” and “not wanting anyone to perish” (2 Pet. 3:9)? So I think Scripture is clear that God punishes evil, and yet he has his reasons, in his infinite wisdom, for permitting some sins to run for now even while other evils may be stopped.
All babies are made in the image of God, just like you. The Word of God declares it is unlawful for one human being to kill another (Ex. 20:13). Having faith in God to touch hearts does not mean that one should not do anything. “You are the salt of the earth” (Matt. 5:13). “You are the light of the world” (Matt. 5:14). If we can do one thing then we can do another, too. If we can help women facing a crisis pregnancy then we can also speak truth to the president, etc.
I am not a fundie. I do not expect a secular America to give God glory. But the US government has lawmakers and they approve or disapprove laws, including abortion laws!
Rom. 1-2 bears out what I am saying: Jews with the Law or Gentiles with “the work of the law” being “written on their hearts” (2:15). Reasoning with and speaking truth into the world is far different from forcing them to live righteously.
Note: I do believe “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (3:23) and I believe by faith (25) “are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” (24). YES! Amen. IOW, one can both reason with the world and still believe salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
BTW, Your quote of 1 Jn. 2:15-17 is either out of context or I don’t know what you’re referring to it for. Same goes for your quote of Rom. 8:37, but I think what you are saying is still true there, anyway.
You focus on the pregnant woman. I applaud the work of pregnancy support services along with counseling. Grace and mercy. I say YES to help services. But what about the woman who chooses death for her baby? The doctor who legally rips the baby apart? The government that facilitates it? The Supreme Court who can just about change everything? The president who can sign executive orders?
I say what did the baby do to deserve suction or curettage?
You say that I want to blame ALL abortion sins on Obama. That is ridiculous! And another example of a personal attack or perhaps even a stereotype fallacy. I never said that.
I too trust God to deal with the evils of abortion. And he will. Do you think he may use a senator or a president or an ex-abortion doctor to deal with it? Or anyone? God used William Wilberforce to help end the British slave trade (1833). He used Moses, Rahab, Esther, and Cyrus; God has used many others to do many other things. He doesn’t need us. But I am sure he wants us to be salt and light. That goes for preaching Christ and for standing for justice.
I do not buy into cutting-our-losses and cutting-our-gains here. God is pro-life. That does not mean that every pro-lifer gives God glory. I am sure that many don’t. But Christians should stand against abortion; Christians should stand against injustice.
It’s a two-part front: (1) Help in pregnancy support centers; (2) And battle in hope God will overturn a bad law.
Your reply was angry, as far as I could tell. Please know that my first comment to you was not a personal assault but rather one intended to address inconsistencies in your argument. My final statement in that comment was not directed toward you unless you fit it.
Kevin Schaub