I posted yesterday about Christopher Hitchens’ thoughts on Christians that he’s debated and one reader responded with a different, secularist perspective (which we welcome here!). I was going to respond to them in the comments section, but I found my response becoming a bit too long and figured I would put it up in a separate post since it had some serious thoughts on what makes Christianity unique. This is by no means exhaustive, but only a surface-level introduction to ‘why Christianity’ rather than Islam, or Buddhism, etc.
Here we go….
1. The existence of God cannot and does not need to be demonstrated. It is evident and is no more subject to “proof” than “disproof.” This is not similar to anything else, no matter how hard we try to draw correlations to spaghetti monsters (cf. Bertrand Russell), etc. Such elusive arguments actually fail to consider the definition of what they’re arguing about. I’m not interested in arguing for the existence of “deity” in and of itself. I’m an atheist in many respects: I don’t believe in “Allah” or the god of Judaism or the gods of Mormonism, et al. I believe in the one God revealed in Jesus Christ. He has been seen and we have eye-witness testimony to this event and his deity.
Rational proofs for/against the existence of some otiose deity dangling before our eyes are rather vain projections of our own minds onto a blank canvas (thank you Cornelius Van Til). They are thus fruitless. I can understand why a “secularist” would want to go down this road, but we share different presuppositions and thus have no neutral ground from which to argue. Someone might retort and say, “Reason is the only neutral ground, why not simply agree to the dictates of logic and reason and then go from there?” Ok, fine, but whose reason? Reason is not an abstract, independent reality floating outside of actual people, outside of time and space. Reason is built upon the foundations of beliefs that people assume without argumentation (“presuppositions). Thus, reason is anything but neutral. I might just as well say that your perspective assumes the non-existence of something you call “god,” for which there is no evidence. I hope I’m being concrete enough with what I’m saying.
Furthermore, we cannot speak of the “non-existence” of the God revealed in Jesus Christ because existence is part of his very definition. To say otherwise would be to separate the signifier from signified. Most people haven’t made the proper correlation between the two such that they posit the non-existence of something they claim is the Christian God, when in fact they have something wholly different in their sights. This is what makes Richard Dawkins such an amateur in this respect and why no philosopher or theologian has yet to take him seriously. Yhwh is self-existing (‘a se‘ in Latin), thus requiring no cause for himself, etc.
2. SO, if we start from the fact of Jesus Christ, then we actually have something to work with. We know about him through Scripture, which then leads to all sorts of questions as to how that’s interpreted, etc. I don’t have time to get too far into this (I’m not going to convince anyone anyway), but the gospel - the good news of salvation in Jesus Christ alone from our sinful separation from God – is the basis for racial and sexual equality, for nonviolence, for the inherent value of human life. Other religions might profess to hold to similar beliefs, but they are actually radically different.
If you cannot see this, it is because you are not a follower of Christ. So you can’t see the ways in which the value of human life is bound up with the fact that God has shared our time and space with us by assuming flesh, and in that same act, redeemed us. You don’t understand what it means to be made in the image of Yhwh, rather than to made in the image of “god.” You can’t see the intricacies of the many ways that the gospel breaks down social divisions and makes everyone equal beggars at the foot of the cross. You don’t understand how race is a sinful human taxonomy that finds little basis in our ontology. According to Scripture, you are either “in Christ” or “in Adam;” redeemed or not. You don’t see how Grace removes privilege. Neither can you see how the creating activity of a TRIUNE God (as opposed to any other “god”) ontologically grounds proper relations between the sexes and proper sexual relations. You cannot grasp the depth with which Christ’s death on the cross puts an end to coercive force and violence.
My point is this: I cannot show you all these things because you would not believe them, but Christian answers are just as hostile to other religions’ answers as your own brand of secularism is. They are not the same, not even close. Why do we all find an inherent need for racial equality, sexual equality, nonviolence, etc? It cannot point to a condition prior to God’s creating activity. If you posit that, then you have to explain how it is human life can have any inherent (read: not culturally or socially assigned) value in a secular system.
Instead, the answer is that all of these things – these values and longings – are built into the fabric of who we were created to image. Christians say that image is Christ. When you begin to understand the colossal implications of that view, then you begin to understand how Christianity is not one religion amongst many. Instead, it stands opposed to all forms of human religion. It stands opposed to all human ideologies. When it stands properly, it stands alone in this world as the consequence of a summons to discipleship; to humbly, obediently, and faithfully follow Christ, our creator and the only true image of God.
So, why not Islam? Why not Judaism? Why not Buddhism? Why not secularism? Why not any other “peaceful” religion? Because they cannot explain everything and thus cannot explain anything. That is a dogmatic claim, I realize. But it gets back to my point in yesterday’s post about being sincere. I’m not trying to convince, only clarify….
Well, I sure am glad I opened that can of worms!
“Believe” it or not, I actually totally understand where you’re coming from, despite the fact that I’ve never been religious in my life. For you it’s not a “religion” in the sense that it’s a set of “beliefs” that you “accept.” Rather, it is like the sun or the sky–it simply is not a matter of “belief,” because it is just part of reality, and always has been and always will be. In this way you can refer to yourself as an atheist, in a way. (I’m not an atheist, by the way.)
I appreciate that you admit that the existence of God cannot be demonstrated, since (from your perspective) it is like trying to demonstrate the existence of a cloud to a blind person. Although it is manifestly obvious to you that it exists, it can never be known to the blind person no matter how much argumentation you engage in.
Now if you’re going to say that the gospel is tied up with racial and sexual equality, etc, then you must come to the conclusion that almost no one on this planet was an actual Christian until some point in the 20th century–AND THEN ONLY BECAUSE OF SECULAR HISTORICAL DEVELOPMENTS–that would be quite a conclusion.
Lastly, I certainly bristled at your equating secularism with other “religions” because, for me and others, a religion contains an ample amount of beliefs, ideas and claims that are not supported by any objective evidence, whereas secularism only deals with objective, natural evidence (in this regard, you call Dawkins an “amateur,” but another reading would see him as an iconoclastic radical because he is bringing such an incredibly different perspective to the issue). On my blog, I will in the future talk further about these and other topics, including how human life can have any value in a secular mindset.
I welcome the dialogue secularist10!
I’ll try and find time to respond tomorrow to your points about secular historical developments, but it might have to wait until next week.
Take care!
[...] is one idea for which there is no evidence. Tylerray makes the argument, in an interesting post that is worth the time to read, that the question of whether god exists or not is irrelevant: [...]
Tyler–great points brother. I think you hit on some key issues for Christians and secular folks to think about.
Despite what secularist here said about Dawkins, I think you hit the nail on the head. The reason he is so influential is because of his rhetoric not his arguments which are leveled at monsters in the closet and the tooth fairy and not the God of the Bible.
I also agree that reason is never a blank canvas–reason is a human invention and therefore subject to human limitations.
I will also say that Tyler never said that holding to racial and sex equality is a requirement for being a Christian. Although the New Testament posits different roles for women and men, it clearly holds that they are equal in Christ (as are all ethnicities Galatians 3:28). Different doesn’t mean unequal. Furthermore, I fear you are devaluing the Christian influence upon human rights movements prior to the 20th Century (i.e. William Wilberforce whose battle to end the British Slave trade kick-started the human rights movement in the states).
Thanks Drew!
I would chasten what I said with this caveat: Secularism is not a religion, but it has worldview implications like any religion. Thus, in the public square, I believe it’s on equal footing.
Further, I think you’re right about the devaluing of Christian influence in history. Christians gave birth to the ideas that formed modern secularism in the first place (i.e., Aquinas). However, the hopes of secularism in the 19th and early 20th Centuries have largely been recognized by the academy as overblown and failed (contra what secularist10 believes). It’s failed to deliver on its billing.
She’s wanting to argue about the public square, I’m wanting to discuss assumed pre-assumptions. Naturally, she doesn’t think she has any. [note: I'm gonna go ahead and be PC about this person so I don't have to continue repeating "secularist10".]
I feel compelled to chime in if only to say that I’m a man (so at least that mystery is solved).
Regarding Dawkins, I’m no expert, but he seems to be of the position, simply, that there is an equal amount of evidence for the existence of the tooth fairy as there is for the God of the Bible—which is true.
The fact that “reason is a human invention and therefore subject to human limitations” does not mean it is not inherently reliable. In fact, it is the best tool we have to figure anything out, and, sure enough, we have used it with great success. Furthermore, the same thing could be said of religion—that it is a human invention (in fact, it is even more of an “invention” than reason because the latter is something we do naturally and instinctually without consciously trying). Does that then invalidate religion? I should think you would say it does not.
I deal with some of the other topics in a post today on my blog, if you are interested in taking a look.
Take care
Thanks for clearing that up, proper personal pronouns will be used now! :D
“…(in fact, it is even more of an “invention” than reason because the latter is something we do naturally and instinctually without consciously trying).”
Well, now we’re opening real cans of worms. You’re assuming belief in God is not a properly basic belief. I would argue that it is (ala Alvin Plantinga). Whose assumption is more reasonable? Only within the last two Centuries have we started to think otherwise. But scientific positivism (which is what I hear from you) failed to deliver on its promises. It cannot support itself, it has nothing transcendent to appeal to (other than ‘deifying’ the self and making empiricism god…which is like saying, “I hear your objection, but I’m right, I know I’m not wrong because I’m right”).
Secularist, I promise you that things are not quite as simple as you would have them. I’ve already said that the only evidence we need is provided to us in an empty tomb in 1st Century Palenstine. N.T. Wright has provided one of the most sophisticated historical arguments for why the burden of proof is on those who would deny the historicity of the resurrection. The historical evidence for the resurrection is enormous. He’s not a blowhard either, this is a man who taught at the same university as Dawkins.
Speaking of Dawkins . . . he has accomplished much as a biologist, considering his presuppositions. But he is certainly no philosopher and his “The God Delusion” is embarassing to read. It’s hard to take him seriously because he hasn’t taken his opposition seriously (and thereby failed to do the responsible work of a scholar).
I’ll read your post and I’ll try to respond early next week on the resurrection. That’s what it all boils down to, anyway.
I would also chime in briefly just to say that the notion that there is just as much evidence for the tooth fairy as there is for God is miscalculated and an unfair generalization.
There is ample evidence that the tooth fairy does not exist. We know the truth–parents sneak in, take the tooth, and leave a George Washington (or an Abe Lincoln under the pillow or a Andrew Jackson for you rich folks lol) under the pillow.
This cannot be said of God. There is the empirical world around us that we can see, touch, taste etc. Where did all this complexity of life arise from? Even if you attribute it to the big bang, you are still not answering the question of where all this empirical matter came from to begin with. Further, we still have no legitimate or even scientifically reasonable theory for where life came from. For the sake of argument, let’s say life did evolve out of single-celled organisms–but where did the organisms come from? Bottom line is that we don’t know, no one does.
Nor do we know where we got our sense of right and wrong. Our capacity to love, our inherent sense of justice etc. These are huge questions that Christianity (or perhaps more pointedly, the Bible) gives answers to.
That is why I agree with Tyler that Dawkins is an amateur because he makes silly generalizations about God and never takes the time to address or counter arguments made by sane, credible, well-established theologians. Dawkins reminds me of “Religulous”–ever notice that Maher interviews every Christian nut-job on the planet but fails to talk to any of the thoughtful, credible, intelligent, Christian voices in our nation. It is a caricature.
I have just written a post addressing some of Drew’s ideas, if you are interested in taking a look:
http://100treatises.wordpress.com/2009/11/23/on-the-existence-of-the-man-in-the-sky/
You are very welcome to comment.
The points raised by Tyler are a bit deeper and more complex, so I will write about them in a future post soon.
Take care